Your chat for January 2024

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Topic:General Discussions

Thread closing on 31 January, 2024

ParentData

2 years ago

Your chat for January 2024

Welcome to our monthly discussion forum. This is a place to come together and share your thoughts on the most recent ParentData articles, general topics, and more. Remember to be respectful and kind. For any question reach out to us—ask@parentdata.org.

Thanks for being here!

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  • The topic ‘Your chat for January 2024’ is closed to new replies.
  • KathleenN

    2 years, 3 months ago

    I would want to know more about who is included in the sample to determine COVID effects on the menstrual cycle. The last study I saw on this topic limited their sample to women with regular cycles. While this makes sense in terms of ability to determine cause and effect, it does make me wonder whether those of us with less regular cycles are the very people whose cycles are most susceptible to outside influence, and maybe you’re eliminating precisely the population most likely to see an impact. For example, I wouldn’t have qualified to be in the study I’m referring to, because my cycles vary from about 30-50 days. Meanwhile, I didn’t get my period for *4 months* after I got vaccinated. Even as someone who’s not regular, this was a sudden and dramatic departure from my norm. But studies that only include people with regular cycles would never take it into account.

    1 comments
    • Kate

      2 years, 3 months ago

      I participated in this study. I don’t know why I personally was solicited for the survey, but I can say it wasn’t presented as only being for those with regular cycles, if that helps.

      0 comments
  • smfinch

    2 years, 3 months ago

    I might be in the minority, but I find an increase of 1.45 days, in women with regular cycles, to be significant, when you consider how much individual fluctuation it takes to move this number. I myself experienced an extreme shortening of my cycle with both the initial vaccine series, booster, and one out of 2 known infections (4 days, 7 days, and 12 days shorter, respectively). My period post-infection was also really atypical in terms of heaviness and pain to the point of affecting my day-to-day. My post-menopausal mother experienced bleeding. I have lived my entire life without having any significant disruption to my cycle despite many illnesses, including a very severe flu infection. I don’t find it “scary,” as it was short-lived, but I do find it interesting and I wish we had more research and explanation about the relationship between our immune system functioning and our menstrual cycles. My own doctor experienced a similar phenomenon but really didn’t have much insight into the “why” it happened and most of us just like to understand what is happening with our bodies.

    0 comments
  • DanglyRaccoon

    2 years, 3 months ago

    With regards to the lengthening of menstrual cycles as a result of COVID and COVID vaccines, you conclude that there “is no reason to think there would be any fertility impacts as a result”, but I wonder if that might not be the whole story.

    Since the average increase was only 1 day, I think I can agree that on average, there wouldn’t be an impact, but what about the rest of the distribution? For example, if some people experience a much longer lengthening, even though it’s rare in the population as a whole, could we not plausibly hypothesize that those people might experience an impact on fertility?

    0 comments
  • Amanda

    2 years, 3 months ago

    I think that this discussion of trampolines does not adequately distinguish between trampolines and trampoline parks. Jumping in a foam pit isn’t necessarily similar to jumping on a trampoline of the sort some have in their yards. My own kids sometimes spend time at trampoline parks getting pizza or doing the arcade, among other things. So I can’t infer much about the safety of trampolines from data on time spent in trampoline parks.

    What I do know is that any ER professional will tell you that trampolines are a top cause of pediatric injuries that bring in kids. And it doesn’t even have to be from misuse, like carelessly crashing into another kid. A kid I know broke her leg as a 3yo just from bouncing up and down on one. The force itself is the problem.

    We would never allow our kids to have a trampoline, but we do take them to places like Urban Air. The places for jumping there don’t allow you to spring as high or as hard as your typical backyard trampoline, and plenty of the time spent is on aerial rope courses, slides, arcade games, snacks, and other things that aren’t what we consider risky.

    0 comments
  • Jenna

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Curious to know how many other people felt like the first grader in the letter at the end of the Classroom Rewards article. The whole time I was reading it, I was remembering a time in elementary school when I forgot to get something signed, so I did not receive our school’s reward system (a fake dollar bill you could save up to buy trinkets every few weeks.) I vividly remember sitting in my seat in class and crying because this was the one and only time I had ever forgotten a homework assignment. I’m curious on others thoughts when reward systems aren’t used as punishments (nothing was taken away from me) but it still felt like a punishment.

    2 comments
    • access@mattered.com

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I cried the first time I got demarked from the “good kid” chart. I think part of it was that I wasn’t positive what I had done, so there was a bit of injustice in there. But I got over it quickly.

      0 comments
    • kate9

      2 years, 2 months ago

      As the resident ‘teacher’s pet’, I hated rewards systems. The habitually good kids weren’t regularly rewarded, just the misbehaving kids on the off chance the did behave. The systems would always start out the year with good intentions but would usually barely be in use by the end of the year.

      0 comments
  • access@mattered.com

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I’m mostly just here to say thank you for making me laugh out loud this Monday morning with the line “Very few high school students are still demanding an M&M every time they poop in the toilet.” My daughter is in 5th grade at our neighborhood elementary school, which has students from a wide range of socioeconomic backgrounds as well as a high number of students with behavioral and learning differences. I’ve seen her in a class with a fairly high level of behavioral chaos (her teacher is a 30 year veteran but was out for an extended time for health issues and the class essentially went off the rails when they had a sub – this was also the year after covid disruption). Many teachers at this school use incentive based programs. I agree in 1st grade there was some heartbreak over kids missing “points” parties, but I tend to support the teachers at this school who are knowledgeable of this student population and are committed to helping them succeed in their overall school experience. In 5th grade the teachers have a “money system’ where all the students are earning/losing money for both individual and collective behavior and saving for a class goal (pizza party of course!) and the kids seem really into it. It seems like a good way for them to learn some budgeting and financial skills as well. The only potential downside that has recently come to my attention is that the students are betting each other using their classroom money – ie one student owes another $10 for betting on whether it would snow or not! I can’t imagine it will impact my daughter’s love of learning since that seems intrinsic to me (in her case), and it does seem to be improving the overall class behavior (and thus making more time for learning) compared to some years in a class without the incentive system.

    0 comments
  • access@mattered.com

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I’ve heard that any negative effects which come from reward systems are easily overcome by occasionally randomly rewarding children.

    0 comments
  • sdroq

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Re:Classroom rewards …What about the motivation to learn new things over time. Yes, once learned, I no longer need an M&M to go potty, but what effect has this exchange had on how future learning is motivated? (new habit formation post being extrinsically motivated (especially over years), not the maintenance of an established habit post being extrinsically motivated)

    0 comments
  • Amanda

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Can we also talk about the environmental effects of all the crap kids get for rewards? Not infrequently my kids will bring home 10 plastic gizmos that get lost, broken, or chewed by the dog in short order, and they know they got them as some sort of reward but they don’t even know for what. Add them to the pile of cheap plastic crap they get just for going to the dentist. Arrgh.

    I’m not against rewards, but it seems like kids get them all the time and it’s not linked in their heads to behavior necessarily. Kids with ADD supposedly do better with reward charts, and we use them sometimes, but I don’t like them getting plastic trinkets or sugar so much as the reward.

    0 comments
  • Rory’s mum

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I had 2 “economics of points” systems growing up one in 3rd grade and one in 7th grade. They were both fantastically implemented. You didn’t need points for any normal classroom activity but you could use your currency at the class shop that ran on a periodic basis. In grade 3 the teacher created the items to purchase. In the older class students were responsible for selling items in the store. It had the benefit of teaching basic financial skills. I think that the 7th grade class even took out takes and had a bank where you could earn interest.
    I found that these two programs enhanced my learning and they were very popular among all the students.
    For me the thing that I find ruins my intrinsic motivation is tests.

    0 comments
  • Erin

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I have two comments about the post on rewards systems and intrinsic learning. The first is: Is it reasonable for us to expect our children to be intrinsically motivated to learn everything? What standard are we setting? In an ideal world, our children would love learning, no matter the topic or difficulty. But can we reasonably expect that? My second comment is: Regardless of a reward system, what are teachers doing to encourage intrinsic motivation? Are they making the lessons more hands-on? More fun? Are they helping children to connect with the material? If you want to encourage love of learning in a child, I would think you should focus on how to teach the material and less on the impact of a sticker.

    2 comments
    • Erin

      2 years, 2 months ago

      Commenting on my own post to say I don’t mean to pile on teachers! I just mean, teachers have it hard enough – let’s let them give out some stickers once in a while to help them manager their classes. The alternative (no rewards) doesn’t necessarily mean that all kids will learn to love learning!

      0 comments
    • Leona

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I get that rewards help with behavior. But wasn’t the concern about its effect on a love of learning? I agree that if the way we’re educating our students isn’t going to encourage or foster a love of learning, we need to re-evaluate. And for me, this isn’t on teachers as much as it is on the training we offer and or require of our teachers. Our school system and our state and likely many other systems and states are awful about instituting new curriculum or new standards without providing adequate training for the teachers.
      I’d also like to mention that I also can’t stand how the biggest school rewards aren’t even for academic or behavior but for school fundraisers! Maybe our children would do better if we invest in them. We’re using a reward system to put the responsibility on the individual to improve instead of recognizing that if we invest in and improve the system, we would be able to help more children stay excited and fascinated by learning.

      0 comments
  • mroatman

    2 years, 2 months ago

    One thing not address in the discussion of rewards is why this “problem behavior” exists in the first place. For that, we have to go upstream. Take the example of a young boy who cannot sit still, tends to fidget, walk around, etc. Yes, you can convince this child to comply and sit still by offering rewards. But to what end? There are many MANY children who do not learn well in a standard learning environment (i.e. silent, sitting still, facing forward). Pressuring these children to comply with standard classroom behavior may be detrimental to their learning outcomes, even if the methods “work” in the sense that they get them to sit down and shut up.

    To me, it reeks of “quiet hands” in the autism community, an approach that has been almost universally panned as harmful and ineffective.

    Anyone curious about this space should read “Punished by Rewards” by Alfie Kohn.

    0 comments
  • Mel B

    2 years, 2 months ago

    My guess is that external rewards don’t impact intrinsic motivation, but not all behaviors need to be intrinsically motivated to be valuable. As Emily notes, in the case of disruptive behavior in the classroom, paying kids to be quiet and calm has benefits that go well beyond getting an individual kid to settle down. But will that behavior become “valued” by the kid long term? I doubt it. I have three (older) kids, and two were born motivated to perform well (in school and elsewhere), although their reasons for this are different! The 3rd could not care any less about performative success–behavior, grades, showing up on time–none of it matters to them. Introduce rewards and, if they like the prize enough, maybe they’ll respond, but it won’t in any way impact their intrinsic motivation.

    BTW, when #3 was in preschool, the class was able to fill up a jar with marbles to get a pizza party–the teachers put in marbles for good behavior, as defined in various ways. It didn’t take long for us to get called in: #3 had simply taken all the marbles from the box and dumped them into the jar and presto! Free party, right?

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  • Jackie

    2 years, 2 months ago

    re: classroom rewards
    my biggest concern about rewards systems is schools (including my children’s elementary school) is the extent that unhealthy foods are used as rewards. not only is there the direct, tangible problem that they are providing children with food that contributes to poor health, without their parents consent or knowledge. there is the additional (intangible) problem of teaching kids that unhealthy foods are high-value foods to be sought after. it is a foundational principle of teaching healthy eating that no food should be ‘good’ or ‘bad’. no food should be celebrated as a reward or used as a punishment. obviously, this happens ALL the time in our culture, but i would hope that our publicly funded schools that are responsible for teaching our kids would be part of the solution, not a large contributor to the problem.

    2 comments
    • access@mattered.com

      2 years, 2 months ago

      Our daycare was a little like this, but our elementary school (and school district) do not allow any food to be brought into the classrooms at all. So all our “rewards” are the plastic toy/junk as mentioned above. The idea of a “store” or “whole class vote for reward” has a lot of merit and learning other aspects of culture and life, so generally the rewards systems we’ve seen have been implemented well.

      0 comments
    • Burgh NP

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I agree, although there is no question in my mind that positive behavioral incentive programs work, especially when specific behaviors like kind deeds, listening the first time, showing respect, good ideas, performing well in fire drills, including other children in play, using a kind and respectful tone of voice, etc. are rewarded (not just “being good”) AND the rewards are broken down into smaller time frames or deeds (so that a child doesn’t have to have perfect behavior for the whole day; some children need this to be broken down by the hour). So, ideas for rewards that are not food or plastic crap:
      Child gets to take off shoes
      Child gets to sit on the floor
      Class gets five extra minutes of recess
      Class gets to dance to a song with a positive message (like RESPECT)
      Child gets to take home an accolade from the teacher
      Class gets to shout three cheers
      Class gets to do a special project that itself is a learning activity
      Children or class get points (that don’t add up to any reward other than points)
      The list goes on, but most of these ideas don’t cost money, don’t contribute to poor eating, and don’t involve wasteful consumerism

      0 comments
  • Jennifer H

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Re baby sleep schedules: The idea of getting babies who have three or more naps per day on a schedule drives me nuts!! In my experience with my three kids and observing many other babies, some babies seem inclined to be on a schedule and some do not. My babies were not, and when I couldn’t get my first on a schedule (mainly because his nap lengths varied tremendously), I felt like a failure. Once my babies transitioned to two naps, they were much more scheduled. But before that, all bets were off. The one exception was when my middle child was in the NICU for 8 days. She was on an amazing schedule of eating almost exactly every three hours, guided by her sleep. But the day she came home, it was over. I think she loved all the cozy sleep props they used. Anyway, I found guidance around wake-time windows to be much more helpful in guiding newborn sleep. Schedules may work for some babies, but not all.

    0 comments
  • access@mattered.com

    2 years, 2 months ago

    On the sibling question, what I really what to know is if there’s any data indicating what drives different sibling relationship outcomes? So it seems it’s not age gap from other of Emily’s writings. To what extent do socioeconomic factors, parental focus on those relationships, family meals, idk eating broccoli? etc etc influence how close your kids are when they grow up. Because if we accept there’s a range of possible adult sibling relationships, and some of them are world changingly intimate and a true gift to our children vs others that are less so, then we need to know how much we can influence – if at all – which of those outcomes our kids will get. Without this, it’s incomplete to just say “eh, you could get anything, don’t worry about it.” If all I have to do is make sure my kids eat broccoli and then they’ll have a beautiful sibling relationship like I do (or more realistically, if we see these strong relationships are heavily correlated with high parent SES which I’m lucky enough to have), then we are in a different situation closer to “an additional sibling is very likely to be a precious gift to your child and you should consider it” vs the answer given.

    0 comments
  • Jenn H

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Thinking about the only child post, chiming in with my two cents as a first-time mom at age 42. I’m also the oldest of three daughters and as my parents have gotten older and dealt with terminal illnesses, it’s been hugely helpful to be tag-teaming their care. My husband grew up with an older brother who passed away in his 20s. Now that his mom is widowed, he very much feels solely responsible for her care and it’s a lot of pressure and huge source of stress and anxiety for him. We are very focused on giving our daughter a sibling because we see myriad benefits but one we think about a lot is not wanting to solely burden her with our care as we age.

    2 comments
    • LjLl

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I appreciate this perspective. My mom is the eldest of three and unfortunately handled the care for her parents entirely on her own despite two siblings. It is simply not a guarantee that siblings will provide the same mental, financial or emotional capacity to help or care for their aging parents. I feel I will run into the same with my sister as my parents get older. My mom has accordingly paid very close attention to the estate planning and financial means necessary to ensure they can care for themselves and it’s not all up to me. A privilege, but something they’ve decided was a priority through learned experience. Emily makes this point. Siblings don’t “guarantee” anything so I think it’s important to leave space for those choosing to have single children that they aren’t necessarily burdening their only children with their aging… and something to give advanced planning and thought to!!

      0 comments
    • Ariane

      2 years, 2 months ago

      Wanted to chime in here as well because I find this so interesting. I am also 42 and my son just turned 2. I’m an only child, and so is my husband. I despised being an only child when I was growing up and I vowed to have 2 children. My husband on the other hand didn’t mind at all. My parents divorced when I was in college, and my mom died from cancer 7 years ago. I had to deal with her affairs mostly by myself (well with my husband’s help but not the same) and it was an extremely stressful and awful time in my life. My father is in his 80s, lives abroad and he’s not in the best shape – and that is a constant source of stress for me as well. However, as I got older, I realized one child would be enough and that was solidified with a difficult pregnancy and delivery for me and not wanting to repeat that process. As Emily said, there is absolutely no guarantee siblings will do anything with regard to relationships or assistance with parents or siblings. My mom had an older brother who became estranged from the family. I never met him, and he didn’t even attend my grandmother’s funeral. I found out he died fairly recently, without anyone in my family being aware. My father has 3 sisters and there’s usually some version of family feud going on between them. My in-laws have good relationships with their siblings and that was helpful when their parents were ill and passed – but in my mind that aspect should be very low in the decision making process (even though I would have killed for sibling myself!) because there are just too many unknowns and what-ifs. There are so many other tangible variables like finances, health, whether you have a support network around you, etc. I hope our son isn’t burdened with our care when (and if) we get old, and when he’s old enough to have that kind of discussion we’ll make sure he knows that.

      0 comments
  • access@mattered.com

    2 years, 2 months ago

    LOVED the post from 1/25/24 on boundaries and consequences! Love the reframing of “punishment” as “consequence”, and the difference between natural and logical consequences. Thanks for sharing this!!

    0 comments
  • hannah

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I’m a first time mom, with a young infant, so we aren’t close to the consequences phase yet. But as someone who is struggling right now with the loss of control that seems to be parenting, I just want to say that I appreciated this line, “How your unique child responds isn’t your job. It may become your problem, but it isn’t your job.” It is helping me separate my inputs from my baby’s response (which is still not still sleeping terribly no matter what I try!). Thanks for the distinction between problem and job.

    0 comments
  • JGreen

    2 years, 2 months ago

    How to Set Boundaries for Your Child:
    I have a four year-old whose bedtime is at 8pm. He keeps getting up out of bed and wandering the house until about 9pm. My husband and I trade off taking him back to bed with varying threats: taking away a prized stuffed animal, putting a gate on his door, taking away the iPad for x amount of time. While we have followed through on the stuffed animal kidnapping, the only thing we’ve accomplished is making ourselves feel pretty bad, and he still gets up and wanders around. It’s his fun new game. Any ideas on how to nip this?

    1 comments
    • nodramamama

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I’m wondering if it’s an unmet need. Their body may need more movement during the day to feel less restless at bedtime. Have you already tried rough and tumble play or “heavy work” activities before bedtime?

      1 comments
      • JGreen

        2 years, 2 months ago

        That’s a good idea. Typically we have dinner and do our bedtime routine, which all take several hours but are not particularly active. We can try to incorporate some fun game in between to get those legs tired. Thank you for the idea!

        0 comments
  • PolicyResearcher

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I have been sort of offended about how little is shared publicly about the trauma of birth. For my second kid, I was in a expecting moms group through my doula, and only one of the other women had given birth before. It felt like the discussion was all sunshine, rainbows, birth plans, and deep breaths. The group facilitators downplayed my comments when I insinuating that birth was likely to have a lot of unexpected elements (my first was 6 weeks preemie and I had to induce after my water broke spontaneously). When the group reconvened after giving birth, it was like being with a bunch of traumatized war veterans. Quite a few of the women had very serious complications, and any notion of a birth plan was laughable. Should the doulas have shared more to prepare them? Or is there no real preparation for the actual trauma of birth? Or is having a good attitude going in a predictor of success?

    But also why doesn’t society at large appreciate that this *very common* event is actually pretty darn traumatic for a large share of the population? (Emily said half(!) of births have mild or moderate complications!) Maybe it’s just one of those things, like parenting itself, that’s hard to explain until you’re in it? Curious about the wisdom of this community.

    2 comments
    • Nchai

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I’m glad that my doula was very clear with me in developing birth preferences and not a ‘plan’. Before giving birth, I felt that I was relatively informed. But then I labored for 31 hours, pushed for 3, had a 3rd degree tear, an episiotomy and significant blood loss. I was totally unprepared for what my first three weeks postpartum actually were like, both the physical recovery and how hard the baby blues would hit.

      I really feel that we need to talk about this more. But I also think that as a first time mom, I was so excited for my baby that it limited my ability to think about my own recovery in advance.

      0 comments
    • ALJ387

      2 years, 2 months ago

      I think a lot of doulas and birth educators try not to focus too much on possible complications because every birth is unique. Unless you personally witness a number of births before your own, it’s really hard to know what will happen. Also, having too much fear prior to birth will mean your body is less likely to allow the physiological process to unfold naturally and this can lead to more complications. I think this is why doulas and educators don’t want to focus on all of the possible complications.

      Having now had a very medicalised birth (induction, epidural, forceps delivery) and a more natural birth (spontaneous labour, no pain meds and mild tearing) I really believe a lot of the trauma comes from our overly medicalised approach to birth.

      0 comments
  • Jennifer H

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Re the nipple shield question: I have inverted nipples and used nipple shields for about three months with each of my three kids. I ultimately weened off of them because I got tired of using them (washing them, having to try to put them on in public, etc.). I found that, at that point, all three babies were strong enough and experienced enough to latch on my very inverted nipples. It took some trial and error to get them to do it, but it worked eventually for all three.

    1 comments
    • access@mattered.com

      2 years, 2 months ago

      Same! I didn’t really care for using them – so hard to keep clean and one more thing to fumble around for in the dark and in public. Had to buy several – one by the bed, one for the nursing chair, one in the diaper bag plus a spare because I definitely dropped that sucker on the floor in at least one high-traffic public place.
      I thought I was patient and would try to nurse without the shield every few days. Around 8 weeks I started to get discouraged because that still wasn’t working. But I kept trying and at around three months, we stopped needing them! (It was gradual – took about two weeks from when she started accepting it without a shield to when I didn’t need to have a shield on hand anymore.)

      0 comments
  • Rowtch

    2 years, 2 months ago

    Responding to Everybody Hurts? about childbirth complications. Our birth certainly did not go smoothly (emergency c-section, sepsis, etc) BUT we had been seeing a midwifery collective for all our prenatal care and they were with us every step of the birth so honestly it didn’t feel traumatic, just eventful. Hopefully you’ll have folks with you who you trust! Plan for it!

    0 comments
  • Mary H

    2 years, 2 months ago

    RE: Nipple Shields. I used nipple shields for the full year I nursed my daughter with no issues. I’m now 9 months into nursing twin boys. One of the twins I still use a nipple shield with and the other one decided he didn’t like it around 5-6 months old. He would nudge it off so I knew he didn’t need it anymore. I would suggest buying enough shields so you only have to wash them once a day. Otherwise it’s not much work and if it helps, that’s great! Good luck!

    0 comments
  • ninalala

    2 years, 2 months ago

    I just read the question about nipple shield weening in todays Q&A and just want to add that I breastfed with nipple shields (inverted nipples that refused to exvert on their own) for 13 months. I also pumped and bottle fed breast milk, which may have helped with breast emptying and increased milk for my little one, but we never even tried to latch without the shields after the first few weeks. I too was frustrated by lactation’s recommendations to wean! My baby and I had a very easy, positive experience with breastfeeding and she gained weight beautifully.

    0 comments
  • Annie

    2 years, 2 months ago

    On the topic of statistical significance, Emily Oster wrote: “When it is used in common parlance, I think people often read [the phrase ‘statistically significant’] as meaning ‘true.'” I would guess that another common interpretation is “important.” If the media says, “It was found that taking ballet lessons increases a child’s risk of concussion, and these results were statistically significant,” it may be that the result really is true but that the effect size is extremely small, and it’s a problem if what the reader takes away is “ballet lessons have an significant effect on concussion risk” (especially if they then trade ballet lessons for something which actually carries a larger risk).

    0 comments
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